INTERVIEW WITH SCREENWRITER BARRY SANDLER

I have the immense pleasure today of welcoming a very special guest, screenwriter Barry Sandler, to CINEMATIC REVELATIONS for an interview. Barry is the writer of many movies including GABLE AND LOMBARD, THE DUCHESS AND THE DIRTWATER FOX, KANSAS CITY BOMBER [my review of the film can be found here] THE MIRROR CRACK’D, MAKING LOVE, and CRIMES OF PASSION, to name several examples. He also has produced the two latter afore-mentioned movies, and is Associate Professor at the University of Central Florida’s Nicholson School of Communication and Media. In this interview Barry will be discussing his role as writer of KANSAS CITY BOMBER, screenwriting, producing, and Academia.

Welcome to CINEMATIC REVELATIONS Barry!

Athan: Where did you learn the art of screenwriting?

Barry: I became obsessed with movies as a kid. My parents would take me to all the new movies until I was old enough to go on my own and I tried to see every movie I could in my hometown of Buffalo, NY.  Seeing that many movies, screenplay structure, character development and dialogue rhythms became subconsciously ingrained and instinctive so it was a solid foundation for the formal training I had at UCLA Film School, where I majored in Screenwriting.

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Athan: Have you studied acting?

Barry: I took an acting class as an undergraduate at UCLA but that's about it.

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Athan: KANSAS CITY BOMBER originated as a thesis you wrote for your UCLA Master of Fine Arts degree. Did what appear on screen alter much from your original vision of the story, and its characters?

Barry: Actually I wrote the script on spec as an undergraduate, then after it was made at a major studio with a famous movie star when I was enrolled in the UCLA Masters Program, I asked if it could serve as my Masters Thesis and they approved. The final film was considerably different from my original screenplay that I sold to Raquel Welch and Warner Bros.  It was much darker and more dramatic, more in the vein of "Requiem For a Heavyweight" and "They Shoot Horses, Don't They?" It went into turnaround at Warner Bros., got picked up by United Artists, then went into turnaround there and finally ended up at MGM. By the time it was finally made at MGM, after several other writers at three different studios had a hand at re-writing it, the final film became more of a documentary-style road movie.

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Athan: KANSAS CITY BOMBER was one of the most successful releases for its studio, MGM, in 1972. How did it feel to see the movie do well at the box office?

Barry: Well it felt great of course, to see that my conception and creation was turned into a movie that a lot of people went to see. It felt particularly good because I owned a profit participation, albeit a small one, and I'm still getting profit and residual checks from it after all these years.

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Athan: What did you most enjoy about the experience of making the KANSAS CITY BOMBER movie?

Barry: I think the origin story of the movie, how it came to be, is a pretty wild one, that became kind of legendary around town and especially at UCLA. 

When I was at UCLA, a few buddies took me to something called "roller games" (roller derby) which I wasn't too familiar with. I was fascinated by it, seeing skaters circle the track and jam into each other while the crowd roared and ate up the violence. I thought it would make a terrific backdrop for a movie, especially centered around a female roller derby queen. I constructed a story -- of a young woman from Kansas City who comes out to Hollywood to make it in show business as an actress, but just isn't good enough. Her dreams of fame and glory are shattered, when she meets a former roller derby star -- a broken-down alcoholic old dame who runs a skating rink -- who takes her under her wing and builds her into a roller derby star, re-living her own faded glory, and in doing so our heroine is able to find the fame and glory she sought as an actress only the perverse irony is as a black-jersey roller derby star, getting booed, hissed, spat on and popcorn boxes thrown at her.

I thought it would be a great role and character for Raquel Welch, who at the time was one of the biggest movie stars in the world and was looking to do more dramatic roles. I had a strong gut feeling she would respond to the material, so I set about getting it to her.

I found out where she lived from one of those "maps to the stars" and in a bold, impetuous burst of youthful daring, I drove to her house and rang the doorbell.  Her assistant answered, I told her I was a UCLA Film student who wrote this screenplay for Raquel and wanted to deliver it personally. The assistant was taken aback, told me Raquel was in Europe finishing a movie but she would read it herself and if she liked it, she'd give it to Raquel when she got back. Weeks went by, I didn't hear back. I called the assistant who told me Raquel was back but very busy, but the assistant did read the script and liked it and gave it to Raquel.  More weeks went by, I still didn't hear, so I decided to make another move -- I sat down and wrote Raquel a heartfelt letter, telling her my intentions in writing the script, saying I was sorry for invading her privacy by ringing her doorbell but that she would understand and appreciate it once she read the script.

A few days after I wrote that letter I got a call that Raquel read the script, loved it and wanted to buy it and star in it. A few days after that I went to her house and had dinner with her and her family, and this time I ENTERED the front door. I was only around 20 at the time, and I strongly advise my students not to do anything like that today or they might get shot.

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Athan: Have you kept in contact with any cast members and crew from KANSAS CITY BOMBER?

Barry: No, since I really wasn't involved in the actual shooting in Portland, Oregon. I do see the story of getting the script to Raquel repeated occasionally, sometimes in interviews with Raquel and not too long ago in the intro to the film on Turner Classic Movies.

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Athan: KANSAS CITY BOMBER was directed by Jerrold Freedman, who later also directed BORDERLINE, and NATIVE SON, and was his first feature film. What was your experience working with Mr Freedman on the movie?

Barry: I met him a few times but by the time he came on to direct, I was not really involved in the shooting.  He came on to the shoot late, replacing the original director -- the great Oscar-winning cinematographer Haskell Wexler -- who conflicted with the powers-that-be at MGM.

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Athan: You were the producer and writer for films MAKING LOVE, CRIMES OF PASSION, and KNOCK ‘EM DEAD, films which pushed boundaries, and made their mark. How was it acting in both capacities for these movies?

Barry:  I don't have any interest in being a movie producer, but being a producer on a movie I've written gives me a much greater degree of involvement -- in casting, in making creative decisions, etc. -- depending of course on my relationship with the director.  Since I never had any desire to direct, only to write, the directors I've worked with were very willing and happy to have me involved, in most cases to serve as a partner and sounding board.  In some cases (Ken Russell, Sidney J. Furie, David DeCoteau) I made life-long friendships and while Ken R is deceased, I still have a strong friendship with Furie and DeCoteau, and saw them both last month when I was in L.A. Being a producer on movies I've written does give me far more opportunity for creative involvement.

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Athan: Over the years you have received many awards for your services to filmmaking and humanity, such as the PFLAG Oscar Wilde Award, GLAAD Media Award, People for the American way Defending Freedom citation, and Southern California Psychotherapy Association Courage in Filmmaking Award. What was the feeling of winning these awards, and having your work recognized in this manner?

Barry: One of the most gratifying experiences any writer can have is knowing your work has had a profound impact on people. By writing MAKING LOVE, I was able to do so.  It was the first major studio movie in history to present a positive portrayal of a gay man, after years of depicting LGBTQ characters as freaks, degenerates, self-loathing suicides, butts of mocking jokes, etc. Here was the first movie, a coming-out story, to show a man who denied his true nature all his life, finally -- through a relationship with another man, an out gay man -- finally coming to terms with who he was and not only accepting it, but finding pride, dignity, and fulfillment living honestly. The film was embraced by the LGBTQ community -- still is, in fact -- we just had a special sold-out 40th anniversary screening and celebration in L.A. at the new Academy Museum. I received thousands of letters from gay men and women around the world thanking me for the film, telling me how it changed their lives, gave them the courage to come out to their families, etc. I'm very proud of the film, and the effect it has had over the years.

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Athan: Since 2003 you have been on the faculty of the University of Central Florida, teaching screenwriting and film history. What is it that you most love about your work there?

Barry: I love sharing my knowledge and experience with students who are at the same point I was at way back when, though now I'm glad to say with more opportunities, more venues to sell their work and get hired to write (with streaming, cable, etc.)  I can guide them on the pitfalls to avoid and the challenges they will face, from my own experience, that will hopefully help and guide them in their careers. I can also give my input on their writing.  Plus I love showing them great classic films, films that I grew up with that made me love movies, and see them embrace these films as well.

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Athan: Do you have any upcoming projects of which you would like to tell readers?

Barry: I'm in the final stages of writing a new original screenplay -- a murder mystery with humor set in a 1980s Midwest high school with a dynamic young rebel-misfit protagonist. I describe it as Ferris Bueller meets Basic Instinct.

I'm also in the middle of workshopping a stage musical for which I've written the book, a really wild off-the-wall show in the vein of Little Shop of Horrors and Rocky Horror Show.

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Thank you so much for your time today Barry, and for the understanding you have provided into the art of screenwriting, acting, the KANSAS CITY BOMBER movie, moviemaking, and working in academia. It has been wonderful to have you on CINEMATIC REVELATIONS. You are welcome to return whenever you wish.

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Barry Sandler links

+Barry Sandler IMDb Page

+KANSAS CITY BOMBER movie IMDb page

INTERVIEW WITH SCREENWRITER DAVID SALE

I have the great pleasure today of welcoming a very special guest, screenwriter David Sale, to CINEMATIC REVELATIONS for an interview. David was the writer of both the big-screen version of NUMBER 96 [my review of the film can be found here] and the series, and creator of the serial. He also has credits in Australian television, particularly as writer and executive producer of The Mavis Bramston Show. In this interview David will be discussing his role as writer in the NUMBER 96 movie, screenwriting, and acting, and moviemaking.

Welcome to CINEMATIC REVELATIONS David!

Athan: Where did you learn the art of screenwriting?

David: My only lessons were from watching movies. I was a film fan from childhood. I believe that the ability to write is an in-born talent. Even in primary school, my little essays were read out to the class by our teacher. I loved thinking up stories then writing them down. Teaching courses can channel the ability to write into special fields such as books or screenwriting, but the basic talent has to be there. I had no training at all.

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Athan: Where did you study acting?

David: Again, I had no formal training. My parents and I were migrants from Manchester. I wanted to be a journalist, so started a cadetship with the ABC News Dept. in Melbourne.  However, I drifted into acting with a suburban amateur group, then I graduated to the Melbourne Little Theatre where I part-wrote and performed in two hit revues. I decided to go back to England to become a professional actor where nobody could laugh at me if I failed. Almost immediately I did a summer season of weekly Rep in Bognor Regis, then played the murderer in Agatha Christie’s The Mousetrap in a British Council tour to Malta. Back in London, I played Malcolm in Macbeth, various bits on TV and two “B” grade movies. I was up for a part in Coronation Street thanks to my dormant Lancashire accent, but that meant going back to live in Manchester where it was filmed and that seemed like a backward step. Homesickness for Australia won out and I came back to Melbourne, resuming and combining  the writing for TV (In Melbourne Tonight etc.) with acting - more revues, a Melbourne Theatre Company tour of And the Big Men Fly, and a year understudying the King in a lavish production of The King and I. (I never got to go on, thankfully - I was under rehearsed and too young for the part). I was content playing his “secretary, Phra Alack. Then I switched to Sydney, just in time for The Mavis Bramston Show, and my career REALLY took off!!!

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Athan: NUMBER 96 was the top-rating show of the early 1970s in Australian television. How did the concept for a film version eventuate?

David: It seemed a logical step. The TV series was still in black and white. Film offered the opportunity of colour - and to producers Cash-Harmon the chance to make even more money by capitalising on the TV series’ phenomenal success.

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Athan: I found the intertwined stories of drama, and comedy entertaining in the NUMBER 96 movie. How did you select the stories which made their way to the screen? Were there stories proposed for the movie that could not be presented for reasons such as time constraints?

David: Script Editor Johnny Whyte and I collaborated on the screenplay. Over a week-end, we thought up individual; and entertaining plots that suited the characters and could all be resolved in two hours instead of being strung out over numerous episodes. Johnny and I then just took blocks of storyline to script and these dovetailed perfectly into the whole because we knew each other’s work - and our subjects - so well.

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Athan: What did you most enjoy about the experience of filming the NUMBER 96 movie?

David: I had little to do with the actual filming once our screenplay was handed over. The actual filming was a breeze for everyone involved. It was completed in two weeks by actors familiar with their parts, on the existing studio sets,  A few outdoor scenes were included, it rained on two of the exterior filming days, but the film still came in on time and - reportedly - under budget.

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Athan: What were the main differences for you in the NUMBER 96 movie as compared to the television series?

David: There seemed little difference to me. I was writing for characters I’d created and knew off-by-heart. Except for when it hit the big screen of course, I was able to experience the incredible reaction of the live audiences first-hand, attending the various premieres. Not only were they seeing their favourite characters in colour, but as each character made his or her first appearance, there was a deafening wave of applause as if it were a stage show. I found that quite moving.

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Athan: What for you was the most demanding, but emotionally satisfying segment of writing the NUMBER 96 movie?

David: I don’t want to diminish the task of doing the movie, but really it was just like writing an extension of the series. The veteran Hollywood screenwriter, Casey Robinson, had come to live in Australia and became a friend. He’d been prolific at Warner Bros during Hollywood’s Golden Years and wrote many of the Bette Davis hits such as Now Voyager and Dark Victory. He was sitting nearby at the Sydney premiere, and I wondered apprehensively what he would think of our humble offering.  He said: “Good work - you’re giving the people exactly what they want!”

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Athan: Have you kept in contact with any cast members and crew from NUMBER 96?

David: Sadly, many of the participants of Number 96 have passed on, but we survivors are like family. I’m still regularly in contact with Sheila Kennelly, Carol Raye, Lynnie Rainbow and others.

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Athan: NUMBER 96 was directed by Peter Benardos, who also directed the series version of Number 96, and was his only feature film. What was your experience working with Mr Benardos on the movie?

David: As I said, I had little to do with the actual filming, but Peter Benardos was the utter professional who had worked efficiently on countless episodes of the series as director, so I knew the movie was in safe hands.

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Athan: NUMBER 96 the movie was one of the top-grossing Australian films at the box office in 1974. How did it feel seeing the characters, and stories you created on the big screen?

David: Top grossing. Thereby hangs a murky tale! Our contracts stipulated that Johnny Whyte and I split the $10,000 for the screenplay into $5,000 each, but also that we were to receive a small percentage (I forget how much) of “the producer’s gross profit.” Thanks to some fancy manipulation in the world of accountancy, Johnny and I never received another cent! We were either so naïve or carried away by success, we let it pass.

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Athan: You had a bit part in the 1959 American movie ON THE BEACH, which was made in Australia by United Artists, and directed by Stanley Kramer. The film starred American screen actors Gregory Peck and Ava Gardner in major parts. What was it like making the movie, and meeting these luminaries?

David: I was still a cadet reporter on ABC radio News when I “took a sickie” to answer a casting call for a day’s ‘extra’ work in On the Beach. Every actor in Melbourne had put their name down, but ended up in street crowd scenes. I was fortunate enough - I know not why - to be called as a guest on a confined set - a great opportunity to see the four major stars work. It was actually Fred Astaire’s big scene, and he was a little withdrawn and worried about remembering his lines, but managed to lighten things up by doing a few incongruous tap steps. Watching off-camera, a hand clapped on my shoulder.  I looked up and Gregory Peck smiled down at me.  “I gather we’re all doomed”, he joked.   Little did I know that in later years I’d be great friends with his ex-wife, Greta. Ava Gardner was also friendly. During a break, she flopped down in the chair next to me on the ‘veranda’ of the fake house the party was in. She was complaining to her hairdresser that she never got letters from friends at. home.  Her hairdresser said: “But Ava, in order to GET letters, you also have to SEND them.”   Ava turned to me. “I can’t write - I can’t even spell.”  “Why don’t you use a dictionary?”  I suggested. She patted my knee. “The words I wanna use aren’t IN a dictionary!” she replied with a naughty wink. It was a magical day for me.

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Athan: You also acted in two British films from 1960, JUST JOE and CROSSROADS TO CRIME. How did you feel in the capacity of actor in these movies?

David: I felt comfortable immediately and quickly learned the trick of blotting out the looming camera and about a dozen crew members crowding intently it  seemed like just inches away…and instead I just concentrated on the person I was swapping dialogue with. In Just Joe the other person was Jon Pertwee, who was later to become one of the “Doctor No’s” or “Who’s” or whatever he was called.   He was very kind and put me at ease in the six scenes we shared together. I played his assistant in a soap factory. And I was able to repay his kindness in a final scene when he had to stay completely submerged in a vat of soapy water until I had delivered the tongue-twisting line: “It’s the black speckles in “SQUIZZ” that make every day a white washday!” I did it in one take, for which Jon was truly grateful.

My bit (blink and you’ll miss me) in Crossroads to Crime led to a lifelong friendship with the wonderful Miriam Karlin. During a break, she motioned me over to where she was sitting and asked for my name and phone number. She thought I was just the type when replacements became necessary in the hit show she was starring in - Fings Ain't What They Used to Be. Nothing came of this kind gesture, but when she came to Australia she remembered me and when she heard of my writing she insisted on my doing all her special material in The Mavis Bramston Show.

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Athan: Do you have any upcoming projects of which you would like to tell readers?

David: I came to live in Queensland [Australia] to take it easy. but a writer never retires. There are always intriguing ideas and potential plots buzzing around in a writer's mind, so one never knows….

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Thank you so much today for your time David, and for the understanding you have provided into the art of screenwriting, acting, the NUMBER 96 movie, and moviemaking. It has been wonderful to have you on CINEMATIC REVELATIONS. You are welcome to return whenever you wish.

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David Sale links

+David Sale IMDb Page

+NUMBER 96 movie IMDb page