Today
I have the great pleasure of welcoming a very special guest, actor David Zooey
Hall, to CINEMATIC REVELATIONS for an interview. David has acted in various
motion pictures and television series over the years, most notably in feature
films THE YOUNG ANIMALS (1968), FORTUNE AND MEN’S EYES (1971) [My review of the film can be found here] I DISMEMBER MAMA
(1972), HIT (1973) and 99 and 44/100% DEAD! (1974), to name a few examples.
David will be discussing his role in FORTUNE AND MEN’S EYES, acting, jazz music, and his teaching position in The Actor’s Sanctuary, a school for aspiring
actors.
Welcome
to CINEMATIC REVELATIONS David!
David:
I think it was there from the beginning. Weekends as a child, my brothers,
sister, cousins and I ( 10 to 15 of us) would get together and go see movies.
And then afterward we’d try to recreate the films we’d seen. The fun we had
made an indelible impression.
*
Athan:
Where did you study acting?
David:
In Los Angeles. With Jeff Corey, Charles Conrad & Donna Gerard. The teacher
from whom I learned the most though was Gordon Hunt. He was the Casting
Director at The Mark Taper Forum located @ The Music Center in Los Angeles. Also a Director (Theatre and Voice over). His
daughter is the actor Helen Hunt. I enrolled in his class to continue studying
Acting. Which led me into Directing, Writing, and then Teaching. At one point Gordon was asked by a playwright
whose first play he had directed, to direct that writer’s newest play. He
wasn’t available because he was directing another play, and he suggested the
writer contact me, which he did. We met and he offered me his play to direct.
Some of the other students in class had been asking me to direct some of the
work they were putting up in class, and I’d been doing that, but I’d not really
thought about directing, per se. I asked Gordon to fill me in on what I’d be
taking on to direct a play and he replied: “You’re already doing in class what’ll
be required of you as a Director.” So, I agreed to direct the play. It was well
received. One of the folks who saw it was the head of a Playwriting Group, who
was also a playwright. He asked me to direct a play he had recently written. I
read it, found it interesting, and agreed to direct it. The results were such
that he began sending me a great many of the scripts from his writing unit.
None of which I was interested in directing. Which then prompted me to begin
writing my own first effort as a playwright: “Taproot.” Written in Gordon’s class. My intention when I finished the play was to find a theatre where I could
get it produced and also direct it. I submitted the play to the Cast Theatre in
Hollywood, at the time the most successful Equity Waiver theatre in Hollywood.
Out of fourteen hundred submissions the year it was submitted, “Taproot” was
one of seven plays chosen that year for a Main Stage production. When I told Ted
Schmidt, the Artistic Director the of the Cast Theatre and Diana Gibson ( the
Dramaturge ) that I was also interested in directing the play, they
told me they already had a director in mind for it and that the play would be
produced at the Cast only if I agreed to play the lead role. I wanted the play
to be produced, and The Cast Theatre had a great reputation and following, so I
agreed to act in it. When the director they chose left the production shortly
after it opened to direct another play, I took over the direction myself and
redirected the play according to the way I had originally intended it be
performed. “Taproot” was extended three times beyond its originally scheduled run.
The play was then submitted to the Landmark Red Barn Theatre in Pittsburgh which was looking for an original play for their upcoming season, and “Taproot” was
selected. After it opened in Pittsburgh I was contacted regarding having it
produced in New York City.
Shortly
after this Gordon Hunt asked me if I’d be interested in working with actors who
were on a waiting list to enter his class? I told him I didn’t think I was
interested in teaching. He suggested I give it some thought. I did and decided
I’d give it a try. Soon the class expanded beyond Mr. Hunt’s waiting list to
include other actors interested in joining the class. Then I quit teaching to
spend six months in New York. When I returned to Los Angeles I resumed the
class. This time it doubled in size. Again, about a year and a half later I was
asked to return to NYC to look into business contacts there. This time I was
gone a year. During that year I discovered I missed Teaching. And decided that if any of the students who
were in the class when I left, had waited
for me to resume the class after a year, I’d continue the class as long as
there was an interest in my doing that. The Actors Sanctuary continues up to
the present time.
*
Athan:
I found your performance in FORTUNE AND MEN’S EYES a spellbinding viewing
experience. How did you become involved in this project?
David: I was flown up to Quebec City, Canada to audition for the role of Rocky. I had heard there had been casting sessions for the role in Hollywood, New York City and London, and that at the moment there was “No Rocky.” There were four leads in the film. All but the role of Rocky had been cast and were in rehearsals for two weeks, when I arrived. I’d read the script on the plane to Quebec City. When I arrived at the prison which was to be the location for the film, I read with Wendell Burton (who played Smitty in the film) for the role of Rocky. And was offered the role. After the audition, the folks in the room during the audition left to continue their duties elsewhere and I was left with the one of the producers, Lester Persky, who asked me if I was aware of the nudity that would be required for the rape scene between Smitty and Rocky? I responded that I had read the script on the plane and hadn’t seen any indication of that in the script. He said that aspect of the film was yet to be implemented into the script, and that it was integral to the film. I placed the script back on Mr. Persky’s desk and started to leave the room. As I got to the door he asked me where I was going and I told him: “I’m returning to Los Angeles. I’m not going to do your film.” I then called for a cab and was waiting for it out on the entrance steps to the prison when Mr. Persky came out and said to me: “Don’t leave…we’ll find a way to work things out.” He handed the script back to me. I took it ,and decided a short meeting with Wendell Burton might be the next order of business.
David: Immediately after my being cast as Rocky, and then following the conversation with Lester Persky about the nudity in the film, I met with Wendell Burton and told him that after my conversation with Lester Persky that I was pretty sure that the film had been sold to M-G-M on the condition that it would be the first time the male sex act was to be graphically depicted in a film produced by a major motion picture studio. And that Persky had indicated to me that the rape scene we were to film together would require total nudity. I asked Wendell if he’d been told this? He said he hadn’t. I asked him how he felt about it? He said nobody had said anything to him. Then added: “ I sure as Hell wouldn’t want my grandmother seeing me doing something like that onscreen!” I then said to him: “I know we’ve just met, but I’ve got an idea…if you don’t mind me throwing something into the mix?” He said: “Not at all – shoot.” I said “Let’s tell the producers (Lester Persky and Lewis Allen) and the director (Jules Schwerin) that we’re fine with doing the rape scene but want to have it pushed back two or three weeks to get a feel for the film, for working together, and to establish the relationship between the two characters we’re portraying. And if we can do that, by the time we get to the rape scene there will be several weeks of film already shot and in the can and we might be able to exert some pressure to have the scene filmed in a way we’re both comfortable with. And if they're not open to this - we can flat out refuse to do the scene. And we'll see what happens then." Wendell enthusiastically agreed to this, and that became the plan.
David: I was flown up to Quebec City, Canada to audition for the role of Rocky. I had heard there had been casting sessions for the role in Hollywood, New York City and London, and that at the moment there was “No Rocky.” There were four leads in the film. All but the role of Rocky had been cast and were in rehearsals for two weeks, when I arrived. I’d read the script on the plane to Quebec City. When I arrived at the prison which was to be the location for the film, I read with Wendell Burton (who played Smitty in the film) for the role of Rocky. And was offered the role. After the audition, the folks in the room during the audition left to continue their duties elsewhere and I was left with the one of the producers, Lester Persky, who asked me if I was aware of the nudity that would be required for the rape scene between Smitty and Rocky? I responded that I had read the script on the plane and hadn’t seen any indication of that in the script. He said that aspect of the film was yet to be implemented into the script, and that it was integral to the film. I placed the script back on Mr. Persky’s desk and started to leave the room. As I got to the door he asked me where I was going and I told him: “I’m returning to Los Angeles. I’m not going to do your film.” I then called for a cab and was waiting for it out on the entrance steps to the prison when Mr. Persky came out and said to me: “Don’t leave…we’ll find a way to work things out.” He handed the script back to me. I took it ,and decided a short meeting with Wendell Burton might be the next order of business.
*
Athan:
What was it like filming FORTUNE AND MEN’S EYES in Canada, in which seemed to
be a very cold winter?
David:
Yes, at one point it was twenty five below zero. I ended up in the Hospital on
three different occasions (lacerated hand, head wound, ruptured kidney / kidney
stone). The first night after I was cast in the film I asked to spend the night
in one of the prison cells. A long night in which I had a dream in which I was
incarcerated & living for one thing – escape. The film began shooting in late
October. And continued for the next four and a half months. As the Holiday
season approached, I read in a newspaper that the worst time for someone in
prison was Christmas. The film was to break for two weeks over Christmas and
New Year. I‘d been receiving invitations from folks working on the film to
spend Christmas with them, which I’d declined, without knowing exactly why. And
then It hit me that I’d never have a better chance to find out if what I had
read in the newspaper about Christmas being the worst time for someone incarcerated
was true or not. I decided to find out. The film had shut down for the
holidays, and everyone connected with it had scattered except for Security
personnel at the prison. On the late afternoon of December 24, I took a cab to
the Prison entrance and asked the Security Guard on duty who spoke in broken
English to be let into one of the Solitary Confinement cells which were located
two floors beneath the main floor of the prison. I showed my identification
card verifying that I was one of the actors in the film being shot there, and
asked the guard to let me out on Christmas Day. I also asked to be locked into
the cell, with just a pillow, blanket, and container of water. Which is all a
prisoner in Solitary confinement is allowed. The Guard said I’d be let out on Christmas
Day, as I requested. After his shift ended that night I found out later he went
off to a ski resort to celebrate Christmas with his family, and forgot he had
locked someone into one of the cells. Two and a half days later he remembered
and called the guard who had replaced him on Christmas Eve and told him one of
the actors in the film was locked in one of the Solitary confinement cells and
needed to be released immediately. Christmas morning, expecting to be released, I
had waited until the dime holes in the prison door began to darken that mid
afternoon on Christmas Day, before calling out to be released. Did that until I
had no voice. Did that until I literally began to fear for my life. What had
begun as a bit of research for a role I was portraying became along the way, in
some of the moments I experienced - a nightmare.
I ran out of water during the first night, and the fact that I had nothing to drink for the next two and a half days and nights caused me several weeks later to develop a kidney stone. That happened while I was spending ten days in a hospital recovering from a kidney I had ruptured in a fight scene for the film. All my remaining scenes, including the rape scene, were pushed back to the end of the shooting schedule.
I ran out of water during the first night, and the fact that I had nothing to drink for the next two and a half days and nights caused me several weeks later to develop a kidney stone. That happened while I was spending ten days in a hospital recovering from a kidney I had ruptured in a fight scene for the film. All my remaining scenes, including the rape scene, were pushed back to the end of the shooting schedule.
*
Athan:
You and Wendell Burton shared an intense connection as Rocky and Smitty in
FORTUNE AND MEN’S EYES. What was it like filming these complex,
multi-dimensional scenes in the film as part of an acting ensemble? David: Immediately after my being cast as Rocky, and then following the conversation with Lester Persky about the nudity in the film, I met with Wendell Burton and told him that after my conversation with Lester Persky that I was pretty sure that the film had been sold to M-G-M on the condition that it would be the first time the male sex act was to be graphically depicted in a film produced by a major motion picture studio. And that Persky had indicated to me that the rape scene we were to film together would require total nudity. I asked Wendell if he’d been told this? He said he hadn’t. I asked him how he felt about it? He said nobody had said anything to him. Then added: “ I sure as Hell wouldn’t want my grandmother seeing me doing something like that onscreen!” I then said to him: “I know we’ve just met, but I’ve got an idea…if you don’t mind me throwing something into the mix?” He said: “Not at all – shoot.” I said “Let’s tell the producers (Lester Persky and Lewis Allen) and the director (Jules Schwerin) that we’re fine with doing the rape scene but want to have it pushed back two or three weeks to get a feel for the film, for working together, and to establish the relationship between the two characters we’re portraying. And if we can do that, by the time we get to the rape scene there will be several weeks of film already shot and in the can and we might be able to exert some pressure to have the scene filmed in a way we’re both comfortable with. And if they're not open to this - we can flat out refuse to do the scene. And we'll see what happens then." Wendell enthusiastically agreed to this, and that became the plan.
When
the day arrived to film the rape scene Lester Persky asked to meet with Wendell and I before filming was to
begin that morning and said that the Rape scene scheduled for this day was to
be filmed in total nudity for both Rocky and Smitty. To which both Wendell and I
both responded: “We’re not going to do it that way.” Persky then called the director
Jules Schwerin in to join him in the meeting he was having with us and we
repeated to him what we had said to Persky.
Production immediately came to a halt. M-G-M, the studio producing the film was
contacted, and Herb Solow (Head of Production for M-G-M) flew to the Prison and
met with the producers, and the director of the film. That meeting resulted in
the director (Mr. Schwerin) being fired and replaced by Harvey Hart. Once the new director was in place, the meetings
ended, and Mr. Solow returned to M-G-M. Before beginning filming Harvey Hart
asked to meet with Wendell Burton and I. When we got together he asked us how
we saw the film but before answering his question, Wendell and I had a question
for him: We asked if he thought the film had been “green lighted” because of
the potential it contained to exploit the sexual element of prison life? He
said “Yes.” And then he added that not being able to deliver that particular element
of the film was the reason Jules Schwerin had been fired. Wendell and I both
said neither of us wanted to make that kind of film. Harvey then said that since the sexual element
was a part of prison life, that some of it would have to be in the film, but
that he was also against it being the central element of the film, or
sensationalizing it. He also said that he thought we could make a more honest
film without exploiting the sex angle and that he wanted to make the same kind
of film that it sounded to him that we were interested in making. He ended the
meeting with: “Fellahs – let’s make the film WE want to make. If M-G-M doesn’t
like what we’re doing – they can fire me, too.” To that end he decided to scrap
what had been filmed before he came aboard and reshot the film entirely. From
that moment on filming “Fortune And Men’s Eyes “ became for me - a creative
adventure.
*
Athan:
What did you most enjoy about the experience of filming FORTUNE AND MEN’S EYES?
David:
Sometimes I think - just surviving it. John Herbert had written the play. And
it appeared that in the shooting script I received after my audition, that the character
of Rocky had remained completely unchanged from the original theatre
production, while the other three lead characters had all evolved, been
developed and adapted to make the transition from stage to screen. The day I
was cast in the film I was asked to participate in a “ table read “ of the
script. And found the character of Rocky saddled with dialogue that was antiquated,
superfluous, dated. I asked to get as much of it removed as possible. Jules
Schwerin, the first director of the film, allowed me to do the first couple of
scenes he filmed of me as Rocky improvising my own dialogue instead of using
what was in the script. After he saw the dailies of what he had shot, and heard
the dialogue I had improvised, he allowed me to continue doing that. When Harvey Hart took over directing the film he
told me that when he had first read the script, he had noticed the dialogue for
Smitty, Queenie and Mona all sounded contemporary and natural, but that Rocky’s
dialogue: “sounded like something out of a film about the “Dead End Kids.” He
also said that “When I saw the dailies of what had been shot, I noticed you
weren’t saying what was in the script, that you were improvising your own
dialogue as well as some of the action, and what I heard and saw - rang
true to me. And that’s when I decided that once we began to work together, I’d
let you continue to do exactly what you were doing.” And that’s pretty much
what happened once we began to work together. When a scene was scheduled that I
was in, he’d come into my room before filming was to begin and ask “What
happens to Rocky now? Where does he go, what does he do next, and what’s the
action that takes place?” I’d give him my thoughts. He’d listen and we proceeded
from there. Once I told Harvey what I thought Rocky might do next, he’d ask me:
“Where do you think is going to be the best place to put the camera, and how many
cameras are going to be needed to cover this next scene the way you want to
play it?” He allowed me complete freedom
to improvise not only my dialogue but the action of my character in every scene
I was in, and this is how we continued to work together for the remainder of
the film. This kind of creative freedom wasn’t
something I had asked for. Harvey said that after watching the dailies, he just
had the feeling that this would simply be the best way for he and I to work
together. It was a way of working together - determined by necessity. It wasn’t
until Harvey Hart came onboard as director of the film that I began to feel as
though I might have someone in the production of the film that I could trust.
*
Athan:
What impact did acting in FORTUNE AND MEN’S EYES have on yourself as a person?
David: It validated my interest in taking risks as an actor. As well as my desire to have my work as an actor be – of service to others. On the plane to Quebec City I remember, as I was reading the script, feeling as though “ I was being called out, ” in terms of the kind of actor I would be: conventional (meaning safe) or otherwise, in terms of the roles I was willing to take on. I remember thinking: “What’ll I do if I’m offered the role of Rocky - a character from another part of the forest than I’m familiar with?” What came to me then was that perhaps, if the film itself were to be handled in a certain way, it could possibly shed light on certain elements of the prison system that desperately needed – change – that might bring about helpfulness and healing instead of inflicting damage and addiction to a life of crime - on those incarcerated. This seemed to me to be a worthwhile reason to involve myself with the film. I found myself too, at that moment, looking for someone whose acting career might be an example for me of how to manage my own career in the face of the particular challenge that seemed to be presenting itself to me – and found no one. I remember feeling that the step I am about to take creatively…professionally, is one I’m going to have to take – alone. It really wasn’t until some years later that the example I’d looked for on “Fortune” - suddenly appeared, when I saw Tom Hanks in the motion picture “Philadelphia.” He played a gay man dying of Aids and won the Academy Award that year for Best Performance by an Actor for his work in the film. I remember watching the film and feeling : “There it is – the Permission I’d wished I’d had on “Fortune - that was non-existent at that time. After seeing that film I thought to myself: “ Actors are free now! To play whatever kinds of roles are offered to them, whatever kinds of roles they may create or seek to bring to life - whatever kinds of roles their talent may be inspired to reach for.”
Personally, when “Fortune And Men’s Eyes” opened, the feedback that my performance as Rocky in the film generated that meant the most to me – came from my fellow actors. Intuitively perhaps, on some level they may have sensed the chance I’d taken by accepting the role of Rocky, whether I had succeeded or not – to strike out on a path where there did not seem to be at that time – another traveler.
*
David: It validated my interest in taking risks as an actor. As well as my desire to have my work as an actor be – of service to others. On the plane to Quebec City I remember, as I was reading the script, feeling as though “ I was being called out, ” in terms of the kind of actor I would be: conventional (meaning safe) or otherwise, in terms of the roles I was willing to take on. I remember thinking: “What’ll I do if I’m offered the role of Rocky - a character from another part of the forest than I’m familiar with?” What came to me then was that perhaps, if the film itself were to be handled in a certain way, it could possibly shed light on certain elements of the prison system that desperately needed – change – that might bring about helpfulness and healing instead of inflicting damage and addiction to a life of crime - on those incarcerated. This seemed to me to be a worthwhile reason to involve myself with the film. I found myself too, at that moment, looking for someone whose acting career might be an example for me of how to manage my own career in the face of the particular challenge that seemed to be presenting itself to me – and found no one. I remember feeling that the step I am about to take creatively…professionally, is one I’m going to have to take – alone. It really wasn’t until some years later that the example I’d looked for on “Fortune” - suddenly appeared, when I saw Tom Hanks in the motion picture “Philadelphia.” He played a gay man dying of Aids and won the Academy Award that year for Best Performance by an Actor for his work in the film. I remember watching the film and feeling : “There it is – the Permission I’d wished I’d had on “Fortune - that was non-existent at that time. After seeing that film I thought to myself: “ Actors are free now! To play whatever kinds of roles are offered to them, whatever kinds of roles they may create or seek to bring to life - whatever kinds of roles their talent may be inspired to reach for.”
Personally, when “Fortune And Men’s Eyes” opened, the feedback that my performance as Rocky in the film generated that meant the most to me – came from my fellow actors. Intuitively perhaps, on some level they may have sensed the chance I’d taken by accepting the role of Rocky, whether I had succeeded or not – to strike out on a path where there did not seem to be at that time – another traveler.
*
Athan:
Did filming FORTUNE AND MEN’S EYES make you see jail and the prisoners who live
in these facilities in a different light than you first imagined?
David:
No, because I had read about the prison system. But it brought the loss of my
own freedom home to me in a more personal way because of the couple of
accidents that happened to me along the way of making the film.
David: No. Unfortunately, Wendell Burton, Michael Greer, Harvey Hart and both Producers Lewis Allen and Lester Persky are no longer with us. A couple of years after the film had opened, Wendell, with whom I had always got along well, invited me to his first wedding, which took place in Griffith Park in Los Angeles. It was a lovely ceremony. Shortly after that Wendell and his wife moved out of California. I never saw them again. I heard later he had become a “Born Again Christian:” performing Christian music concerts, recording & touring.
*
Athan:
Have you kept in contact with any cast members and crew from FORTUNE AND MEN’S
EYES?
David: No. Unfortunately, Wendell Burton, Michael Greer, Harvey Hart and both Producers Lewis Allen and Lester Persky are no longer with us. A couple of years after the film had opened, Wendell, with whom I had always got along well, invited me to his first wedding, which took place in Griffith Park in Los Angeles. It was a lovely ceremony. Shortly after that Wendell and his wife moved out of California. I never saw them again. I heard later he had become a “Born Again Christian:” performing Christian music concerts, recording & touring.
*
Athan:
Are you still recognized today for your role in FORTUNE AND MEN’S EYES?
David:
Yes. Quite honestly and it’s just one person’s opinion: because M-G-M did not
get exactly the kind of film they anticipated when they purchased the rights to
film it, they never had a clue as to how to promote it. The very week that
“Fortune And Men’s Eyes” opened, the Attica Prison Riot occurred (1971). That
kind of coincidence or synchronicity might have been a gold mine in the hands
of another motion picture studio than M-G-M. A couple of years later, I went to
Europe on a film. Prior to that I had had no real idea of how powerfully the
film had resonated with the public internationally until I began shooting in
France, and then Italy. In Italy I learned that huge crowds had swarmed all the
venues there where the film had played, because the Italian public knew that
the Catholic Church would do everything in its power to get the film banned as
soon as it could after it opened, wherever it opened. I heard too, that
wherever it had played in Europe, it had caused a sensation.
*
Athan:
Just out of interest, but are you left-handed? I noticed that in FORTUNE AND
MEN’S EYES you did many things this way, such as eating and throwing items.
Being left-handed, I like to see which actors are the same.
David: Yes, I’m a Southpaw.
David: Yes, I’m a Southpaw.
*
Athan:
Of all your movies, which was your personal favorite movie acting role?
David:
Fortune And Men’s Eyes.
*
Athan:
You have been teaching acting to students for many years now in THE ACTOR’S
SANCTUARY. What gives you the most satisfaction about teaching the art of
acting to students?
David:
A couple of things: In order to conduct The Actors Sanctuary I’ve found I must
continue studying, learning, growing, too. Otherwise I have nothing to give. Also:
if someone comes to me asking me for help, and if there is some way I may be
able to offer that, well, just speaking for myself - what else am I living for?
The best teacher it seems to me – is life itself. My favorite kind of acting
looks like - life, and not like “acting.” I hesitate to use the word Teacher
referring to myself. It’s dishonest in my opinion. Because I consider myself a
student: first, foremost, lastly. There is a certain kind of satisfaction in
guiding, encouraging and simply working with others. And hopefully, watching
them grow. Another satisfaction is hearing from one of the students that something
we’ve worked on together in class has helped them in an audition or in a role
they have been hired to perform.
*
Athan:
What attracted you to jazz music and performing this for audiences?
David:
The vulnerability of being in the moment, with nothing to hide behind (sheer
terror when one begins that particular journey). Exactly the same “calling”
that resides at the center of a certain kind of acting. Acting and Singing I
find to be interrelated. And it’s why we do both in The Actors Sanctuary. It’s
impossible to hide from the camera. Same for a singer in front of a live
audience. I’m not sure this will make any sense, but I’ll give it a shot anyway:
to me now - being completely alone feels
to me to be pretty much the same experience as acting in front of a camera or
singing in front of a live audience. Once it didn’t. Now it does. I don’t know
why.
*
Athan:
Have you released a CD of your music?
David:
Not formally. But I’ve recorded a CD. A live recording of the second Jazz gig I
was hired for: “David Hall: Live @ Geri’s Jazz World.”
*
Thank
you so much today for your time David, and for the fascinating insight you have
provided into the art of acting, film, FORTUNE AND MEN’S EYES, and jazz music.
It has been wonderful to have you on CINEMATIC REVELATIONS. You are welcome to
return whenever you wish.
*
